Detect and prevent malicious activity on your platform with Trustmatic, featuring Founder & CEO Donal Greene

Steve interviews Donal Greene, Founder & Chief Executive Officer of IDV startup Trustmatic
Steve Craig, Founder & CEO
Mar 14, 2023
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FEATURING: Donal Greene, Founder & CEO of Trustmatic

In this episode, I interview Donal Greene, Founder & Chief Executive Officer of IDV startup Trustmatic.

Donal shares his journey building a Slovakia-based startup in the digital identity industry after a rising career at Innovatrics. He introduces Trustmatic’s TrustHub and how his company is making businesses safer with remote identity verification, biometric identification, and selfie-based age verification.

RESOURCES:

Connecting with Donal Greene

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donalgreene/

Contact: info@trustmatic.io or https://trustmatic.io/book-a-demo

Companies Discussed

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Steve Craig: Welcome to the PEAK IDV EXECUTIVE SERIES, the podcast for executives, leaders, and change makers in the digital identity space. I'm your host, Steve Craig, Chief Enablement Officer at PEAK IDV. Just a quick public service announcement, this is a video-first series, so if you're enjoying the audio version or reading a transcript, please check out the full video recording on executiveseries.peakidv.com where you can watch the complete episode, read transcripts and access any of the resources that we discussed today.

Super excited about today's guest. He is Donal Greene, the Founder and CEO of Trustmatic. I met Donal through his thought leadership on LinkedIn. He founded Identity Verification Startup Trustmatic in late 2020, and he is very active online. He's very active in trade shows in the industry, and I'm just super excited to introduce him. Welcome to the podcast today, Donal.

Donal Greene: Thank you very much, Steve. Great to be here.

Steve: Prior to Trusmatic, you worked at Slovakia based Innovatrics where you were regional manager of EMEA and then later Chief Experience Officer for digital onboarding. Is that right?

Donal: That's right, yeah. I got my first taste of biometrics at Innovatrics. I joined in 2015. I guess it was a crash course in identity because when I joined the company it was about 35 people. And in the space of four years organically we grew to about 200 and we got a chance to work on some really interesting projects initially in the government sector. So doing ID card issuance, elections, voter registration, those kind of things. And then some of the really early identity projects for Enterprise, where they adopted biometrics for customer onboarding, identity verification. So in Innovatrics, I got a great founding in the industry. And then as a natural progression, I saw some space to launch my own startup, and that's where Trustmatic came.

Steve: That's amazing. You're originally from Ireland, but you now live in Slovakia. Is that right?

Donal: Yeah, originally from Ireland, very proud of it and been based out in Bratislava for 11 years now. So settled there with the family and it's a really good place to be based, especially for a startup. Lots of access to talent and it's quite a young startup scene, so there's a lot of initiatives to support startups based out of the area.

Steve: Very cool. But I understand you're right now in Palo Alto, right? You're out in the Trustmatic offices, there in the Bay Area.

Donal: Yes. We're not quite at the level where we have our own office in Palo Alto.

We actually have been very generously given space by my friends at Simplicity. They've just opened their office in Palo Alto, I think in the last 12 months. And Simplicity is an app for local governments and residents to communicate securely with each other. And they have an amazing office here in downtown Palo Alto. So at the moment we're working from here, I'm very happy to be here.

Steve: I'd love for you to share a 30-second elevator pitch on Trustmatic and your trust hub platform?

Donal: Sure, absolutely. Trust Hub is our flagship platform. It's the first product we've brought to market. We position it as a complete identity verification and fraud detection platform, so it helps businesses to increase customer conversion, detect advanced and emerging fraud, and comply with regulations like KYC and AML.

We built it using advanced computer vision and biometric algorithms. And I think one of the unique points of it is that it's able to detect fraud vectors that many existing solutions on the market currently can't. What it also means for users, we focus very heavily on user experience, is that a typical IDV session takes only 20 seconds, which I think is among the best in the industry.

As well as that our funding team at Trustmatic. We all have deep domain experience in identity and biometrics. So we don't see ourselves simply as a vendor, but more like an identity partner, who can offer technology, but also consulting. And who'll work closely with our partners and customers to develop technology that doesn't just solve the needs of today, but also tomorrow, and look ahead into the future.

Steve: When I was looking at your website, I see that you have APIs for face liveness, document authenticity checks, and age verification capability, biometric face search. Are these all orchestrated in your platform or are these individual signals? Can you talk about how they're used and maybe some points of differentiation?

Donal: Yeah, so the reason we separated like that is that we came to market early last year with our full onboarding platform. And a lot of the customers we spoke to early came to us and said, okay, we have something for document processing. We have something for face liveness, but we like your age estimation.

Or we have an IDV platform, but we don't like the fact that has active liveness. Can you give us just passive face liveness? So they wanted this choice, so we then broke the typical IDV flow on our platform into separate APIs. We license them to a couple of customers, in the last year or so. And now the idea is that when you come to our platform, you can choose the modules that you need.

So if you only need document processing, like OCR of identity documents, or you want to do document processing plus authenticity check, for example, you can take those modules, drag and drop them into your workflow and go from there. So it gives a bit more flexibility and it's less like a black box. The users have more flexibility in terms of what they can actually configure and only use what they need.

Steve: Have you seen the market shift from what used to feel like it was like an all in box, like here's the experience to now this disaggregated approach. Have you seen more demand over the last few years for more granular control?

Donal: Absolutely. I think the market's definitely moved away from one thing, a binary yes or no answer on an onboarding. People have realized there's a lot of data you can actually get from a session. Even things like whether the person's wearing glasses, are they in the dark room or light room, all these kind of things in some way can have value to organizations, so they want to get as much granular data as possible. As well as that, it's also about flexibility and how they can set up an onboarding session.

I think the vast, vast majority of onboardings are ID card selfie, and then maybe some things which come afterwards. And that's how we set up our MVP. We released it to the market and one of our customers said. "Can we do a selfie first?" We said, Hmm, interesting. So we looked at that. We saw that that's maybe a trend that's coming in the market.

So we made it completely flexible. You can decide if you want your selfie first, if you want your document flow first. You can add in certain checks that might be non-standard. And I really believe that that's where it's going. The black box approach , I would say even legacy at this point.

And people want, a drag and drop workflow that they can build themselves with their own decision logic that they can code or. Even add in, in a no code way. So, so via platform, adding in exceptions, how to handle certain situations and have that granular control.

Steve: Do you see that more in certain verticals or use cases or is it really systemic to all of the different consumers of this technology?

Donal: I think it really depends and it's difficult to divide it up. I would say that there are, from my experience, two types of drivers which would motivate an organization to look for identity verification technology.

One of them is regulatory, so it could be coming soon at crypto, for example. Where the regulators in certain countries will say, you as a crypto company must do these types of things, these checks on your individuals who use your service. And generally speaking, those types of companies will come to the market for the cheapest possible solution.

So it's a box ticking exercise. On the other hand, you have the ones which are operationally driven. They may have an actual problem with fraud, which may be costing them money or damaging their reputation. Or they feel that they can offer a better service to their customers by adopting technology.

And these guys come into the market not looking for the cheapest solution available, which takes the box, which is generally a black box with a binary yes or no decision. They want to get insights into all of the different data, which is captured during an onboarding session. We try to have a solution for both ends of that market, but I would say in general, we're focusing more on the ladder where they're really looking for a high end solution with a lot of granularity in the data they can get.

Steve: It's an optimization of managing the user experience but also keeping fraud loss, a lower rate. But what's really crazy about how this industry's evolved with all of the investment and the adoption of these solutions are still continues to be rampant fraud. And in some cases, like what we saw with the pandemic, it feels like it exploded. What do you think is keeping fraud ahead of what vendors are capable of catching and how do we turn the tide on some of that?

Donal: I think that goes back to actually one of the main motivations for founding Trustmatic. When I was at Innovatrics, like 2016, 2017 they were really one of very few companies, especially in Europe, actually offering this technology. But then from 2017 onwards, you had literally hundreds of companies, well funded companies entering the market with quite flashy marketing campaigns offering, offering solutions, and it was software as a service.

I'm obviously quite interested in this topic, so I've tested pretty much every solution available that I can get my hands on, and it is quite easy with, relatively simple fraud attacks, whether you use falsified documents or present face presentation attacks, maybe at the higher end of the spectrum, deep fakes or video injections.

It is quite easy to get through them. So the motivation was to create a solution which would actually patch up as many of these gaps as possible. You're right when you say that fraudsters are always one, or in some cases more steps ahead. I think that's not really going to change. I think the fraudsters will always have that slight edge.

And it's not about the silver bullet approach where one solution will fix all your problems. It's always about layering things together. I think that the frontiers or the areas of the onboarding or the identity verification, which are still issues that haven't been addressed properly by vendors, and I would include even ourselves in that.

I don't think anybody is doing this in the best way possible yet is to do with the identity document. It's still too easy in many cases to either get, a printed fake id, which is usually of decent quality, or to use very simple editing tools to create, falsified IDs and use them to get through onto online platforms.

That's still a major gap in the market, it's something we're trying to address, but it doesn't seem obvious to me, that there's an easy solution to it. It's going to require a lot of R&D. Secondly, I think actually it's important for vendors like us to actually educate the market and explain to them what can and cannot be done simply using your smartphone camera, because there are limitations of what can be done there.

So setting the right expectations. And maybe counteracting some of the, I would say the minority of competitors, but some of them who have quite bold marketing, which for me would cross the line between, what's good marketing versus, saying things that aren't true. So anyone that claims, a hundred percent fraud, detection and those kind of things, that's for me crossing the line.

So education is an important thing. I think thirdly, we need to look at the emerging threat vectors I mentioned earlier. Deep fake and video injection attacks in identity verification. So far I haven't seen a solution that really effectively catches these. That's also one of the areas we're investing in R&D and finally, which I think is really important and we don't have it, is benchmarking and standardization. So in the biometrics industry, you've always had the NIST FRVT or FPVTE for fingerprints and those kind of things. Yes. You can apply the FRVT to identity verification. You can take iBeta Presentation Attack Detection evaluations as an indication of the quality of a solution.

There's no benchmark or no standard for evaluating the ability of solutions to work with identity documents or to validate them. And a lot of these certifications are accreditations. They're simply a yes or no, if somebody has it or not. They don't actually report back how well something performs or how well it performs in relation to the competitors.

So I think we're going to see a move towards benchmarking and standardization.

Steve: Have you been following the progress that FIDO has made with their Doc Auth certification program?

Donal: I've been following FIDO. I've been following, I was at TRUSTECH in Paris before Christmas. And there's an organization in France called ANSSI.

From what I've seen, I think they're the most advanced in terms of trying to bring in at least nationwide in France, standardization and testing for identity verification. They're way ahead. I've seen their videos of what they're doing in their test lab. They're creating deep fakes.

They're using physical fake documents, which are of the level, which would fool border control officers. And using those to test the systems. The issue with aligning with one or more of those standards, is that you don't know which one is going to be required for the customer you're working with, right?

So in Europe it's eIDAS, is the one that people are talking about. Now, it could be FIDO, it could be that you simply need to have iBeta level two. I think what we need thinking from a European perspective is a Europe-wide standardized benchmark for identity verification and that everybody can submit to that and get tested against the same criteria.

Steve: In your experience building solutions to find some of this fraud, are you seeing more fraud attacks out of specific countries or with certain types of documents you share some of the trends that you're seeing?

Donal: I think you do have a geographic bias, I would say towards, Southeast Asia.

 I've worked with a lot of customers there where identity fraud is simply endemic. It's, it's a huge issue. A lot of that comes back to things like the fact that there are no national identity documents. For example, I worked in the Philippines with a company there for a couple of years in my previous role, and there are actually more than 20 documents, which can be considered a national ID so it could be your postal id, your tax id, your social security id, and all of those documents range in quality. So some of them would be similar to European documents, which are of usually very high quality. Others would be printed on paper with a photograph stuck on it and laminated. So that type of document is super easy to, to create a fraudulent version of.

And I would say completely impossible for a smartphone camera or even a human eye to detect that it's not a real document. So it's usually in countries where there's not a standardized national ID system or their quality of documents is low. It also sort of depends on the type of customers we work with.

If it's a customer offering, for example, consumer finance, so payday loans up to $500, they're just going to get millions and millions of people trying multiple, multiple times to commit fraud because they only need to succeed once and they have their $500. So it depends on the use case and depends on the geography.

Steve: Well on that topic, you started Trustmatic in late 2020. You've made tremendous progress. Can you share a few more of the early adopting customers and use cases that have seen a lot of value from using your service?

Donal: Sure. Yeah. So we, we launched the project in 2020. I would say we only went to market really last year. And we've worked with, almost 15 customers already. So some of the interesting cases, and they're quite different , there's a platform in Slovakia, actually now based in the US called YouDare. It's something like TikTok except you crowdfund dares. So you say you're gonna do something, you post a video with your challenge.

You say if you get a hundred dollars, you'll do it. And people crowdfund your dare when the crowdfunding reaches the amount. You then make a video of you doing the dare and you get the money. The problem they had with the platform was that some of the content was adult. Which they didn't mind, but they wanted a way to segregate the platform into the child safe version and the adult-only version.

What usually happens when you go to an adult website or to even a gambling website or an alcohol sales website is they'll simply ask you, are you over 18? Of course you say yes. With no, no, no verification behind it. So what you there did was when users clicked the over 18 version of the site they make them take a selfie and they use our biometric age estimation to estimate their age.

And they also use liveness detection to make sure people can't use presentation attacks. So that's an interesting use case. They're a fast growing platform. That's the age verification. On the standard or full service identity verification, we work with an AML KYC platform in the Baltics. Which is again, a startup.

So their main technology that they developed is around the background checks of individuals, which checks if they're a politically exposed person or if they have, listed on the Panama Papers or any sanctions list, et cetera. And they saw that they could augment their platform by partnering with us so they could offer not just the background checks, but also the identity verification.

And they've been quite successful in the last couple of months, especially in the crypto area, in the Baltics, working with customers there. Maybe another one to mention would be actually our first project, which is a typical case for a startup where you spend pretty much a year developing your MVP.

You bring it and show it to people who might want to license it, and they say, okay, we like it, but we need something totally different. So we had this customer, they're based in the US. They're a mobile virtual network operator and they had a project in Mexico where exactly like I said earlier, they liked what we did, but they needed just parts of it.

So their use case is that they have their network, which is also kind of a social platform where you can download videos and message and those kind of things, and they reward their users for minutes spent on the platform with points, and those points can be converted into Amazon vouchers or Apple vouchers and those kind of things.

The problem they had was that they only verified identity using email. So that meant that a real case, one person had 12 mobile phones, 4,000 accounts and 9 million points. They didn't want to go down the road of doing full IDV because their demographic is teenagers and early twenties. So having to show your ID to onboard would be, first of all, not necessary from a regulatory point of view, and also would be a poor user experience.

So we implemented a biometric database for them where they store the faces of all their existing users. They enroll them just with a selfie. And then every new user who wants to access the application, takes a selfie, then we compare that selfie against the entire database. I think it's 1 million faces they have at the moment.

And if that face is already there, we don't give them access. So it's essentially enforcing, one face one account principle.

Steve: It stops this problem of multi accounting where you have abuse by individuals, just, creating new accounts, changing information. Suddenly, you're able to thwart that. Do you find that as the size in that database has grown that you run into any performance issues or any honey pot worries? How does that system scale?

Donal: Yeah, so in time, in terms of performance, the technology we use is the same that's used in national scale ABIS systems or national scale identity systems.

So we have no issue about how it can scale and how it performs. It really has a good balance of speed and accuracy, and we deliver it via the cloud. In terms of honeypot. So we set it up this way that our customer stores all of the images of the face. So managing that is on their side. We simply use the image once to generate the biometric template.

And on our side, we only store the biometric templates, which of course can't be reverse engineered. So there is a degree of safety there. If we had a project, which we don't yet, but where we needed to store the gallery of faces, we would look at perhaps something like decentralization or some sort of high level encryption. But we haven't been faced with that challenge just yet.

Steve: To recap, you started late 2020, 2021 was building up the product and you really went to market in 2022. Is that the right timeline to think about for Trustmatic? What were some of the other big milestones or things that you're really proud of happened last year?

Donal: I think last year, the biggest thing is that we survived simply, we've bootstrapped until now. We didn't raise any external money, so it was really tough. Of course everything takes five times longer and costs five times more than you budget for when you're bootstrapping. So the fact that we got to the end of the year in a pretty healthy position was a real success for everybody involved.

We added 15 customers and we did that while still focusing primarily on product development and not really having a go-to-market strategy or executing it because we wanted to work very closely with these first customers because we understand that there are still certain things we can improve in the product.

We made some really great hires during the year, we added a couple of people to our team, which have made a huge difference. So those are key roles in marketing, sales, and engineering. And I was scared actually about having to go to the talent pool and find these people because hiring is really critical and not so easy.

We were lucky to through our network. We found the right people. They've joined a team and they're doing exceptionally well. So that was a really big thing for us last year. And we can't say too much about it just yet, but hopefully in the next few weeks, we'll make a fairly big announcement about our expansion strategy for 2023, and we worked on all of that last year, so that's going to be announced, I would say, in the next two to three weeks.

Steve: For your team build out, the world went through this weird transition where everyone had to work remote and now the pandemic is easing and a lot of companies have started to require their employees to be in offices.

Where are you bringing in talent? Is it in Bratislava or in Europe, what are the places that you're bringing in your team?

Donal: So because of the way we founded the company, we have our, our core engineering guys are based in Riga, in Latvia, and, everyone else on the business side is based in Bratislava.

I don't think we have a concrete philosophy of how we want to grow that geographically. I think that it makes sense to have as much as possible the engineers altogether. So we are focused on the Baltics for core engineering and there is quite a good talent pool in Slovakia for, business, product management, marketing, et cetera.

So in general, I think those will be our two major, major hubs. We do have good traction in the US especially here in, in Silicon Valley. A couple of customers are why Y Combinator graduates and stuff like that. So I think that ideally we would continue to focus in North America, grow our customer base here, and that would hopefully justify us having an office here.

But you enter a different league when you start to be based here and try to attract talent here. So I think we can leverage the talent pool we've access to in central Eastern Europe while also focusing on developing business in North America.

Steve: How about Asia-Pacific region? You'd mentioned a Southeast Asian customer.

Donal: Yeah, I worked with a customer in Southeast Asia in the past, and I do some consulting for some of the companies I worked with there. We're a small team. We're 10 at the moment. We'll probably only be 15 by the end of Q1. So this year we had to cut our cloth to measure.

We can't cover the whole world. So we said that our geographical focus in terms of our marketing and sales strategy will be Central and East Eastern. UK, Ireland, Middle East and North America. So we'd love to work in LatAm, for example, which is actually, I would say one of the prime markets globally for identity verification.

Africa, I think will emerge in the next few years in the same vein. And Southeast Asia is already a big market. We'd love to cover those, but for the first six months of this year, it won't be our primary focus. We need to focus on what we can best serve with what we have.

Steve: One of the things I saw on your LinkedIn, towards the end of the year was a photo where you signed with the Council of Slovak Exporters. What is that organization? And how does that fit into the broader strategy it look like, an awesome signing event? Photos were great.

Donal: Yeah. They're a great organization. So the Council of Slovak Exporters, they help, companies from Slovakia who export globally. And I think that tech founders maybe don't consider themselves or see themselves as exporters, but tech companies are exporters by default because almost all of them work across borders and work in different countries.

So the Slovak Exporters, they have a really wide global network, all around the world. They advocate for Slovak businesses and we're very proud to be a Slovak business. We felt that being a part of that was important for us. They organized some great events like at the end of last year, they had the V4, the Visegrad 4 Summit, which brought together business and politicians from Slovakia, Hungary, Czech Republic and Poland. So we want to be part of that. I think that also export in general, people think of exporting, you know, products and food and those kind of things. We think we can contribute to the Slovak Exporters Council by helping them understand the challenges of tech startups when exporting globally.

Simple things like how much tax do you pay on certain products in certain geographies, and those kind of things. It's really important for us to solve that. I think being part of that will help other tech companies coming along behind us.

Steve: I think more tech companies could benefit from working with organizations like the one that you signed with the Council of Slovak Exporters.

You often think of import export as commodities or manufacturing, or fixed goods. But technology is instantly cross border. As soon as you set up your site and your services, you get interest, from around the world. On the topic of the LinkedIn posts that you make and I highly recommend anyone who's watching or listening follow Donal on LinkedIn. You're always going to events, especially ones that are in Europe, but what are some of the key conferences that you're gonna be at this year? And what are the don't miss shows that you could recommend.

Donal: I think I'm still learning that because in my previous role, which I was there for seven years, there, there was a number of staple events, which were the more traditional side to biometrics and identity, usually more government focused.

I still attend those events. They're great events. So the staples for me would be Identity Week. There's a series of events globally, but I would attend the one in Europe, it's been in London for the last couple of years, but now it's moved to Amsterdam. It's happening in the summer. It's a great event and they support startups with free exhibition space, which I think is a really valuable thing.

So I always go there. As I mentioned, I just came back from TRUSTECH in Paris, which is a great event again. More in the traditional identity space, but I would've a good network there. So it's good to stay in touch with people. And there's a movement called, ID4Africa, which happens every year in a different country in Africa.

This year is in Kenya. I've been attending since, 2017. And I'll continue going to that. So those are the ones that I've been going to for the last couple of years. Now, as we're a tech startup, we need to cast our net a bit wider and look at different profile of events. So this year we're signed up to exhibit at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona.

It's a huge event, like a hundred thousand people. Massive event every year. So we'll be there with a small stand in the four years from now, startup section. We'll probably look at the Web Summit, which happens every year in Lisbon. Again, that's, I think it's equally as big as Mobile World Congress, and then we look at local and regional or maybe niche events, as we see them come up, we'll attend.

So probably more focused on our verticals like, crypto, FinTech, gaming, sharing economy, et cetera. So as we see them, we'll attend. Our strategy is not really to invest so much in exhibiting, rather just go there and network. But it's always great to see these events when they, the ones which offer startup pods sometimes for free, or sometimes for maybe 3 or 4 thousand dollars.

That's attractive to us because early stage startups, I guess we don't really invest, you know, 20k plus in exhibiting at these events. So if there's an affordable option, which is the right vertical for us, we'll look at attending those types of events.

Steve: We're coming up on the conclusion of the time we have and we've spoken a lot about IDV and Trustmatic. I think it'd be really good for our audience to learn a little bit more about you, Donal, and I see on your LinkedIn that you're a co-founder and board member of an organization called Uroda Ventures can you share more about Uroda's mission and maybe a little bit of the history behind it?

Donal: Sure. So, the word Uroda is the Slovak word for harvest., And Uroda is a company based in Uganda, in Kampala. So I'd worked a lot in Africa In my previous role, I was covering the region at Innovatrics and really loved traveling around the place.

Loved finding out more about Africa in. And I'd spent some time in Uganda. This was during COVID, you know, when, when people kind of got some more downtime than usual to reflect on what they're doing and what their purpose is and those kind of things and coincidentally, I have a friend in Slovakia from Uganda and we spent some time over beer just discussing things we could potentially do together.

And we came up with the idea to buy a plot of land in a place just north of Kampala. 13 acres in total and to create a model community farm on the area. And then hopefully, if it goes well, to replicate it multiple times across the region. So we bought the land. We put in the infrastructure. So we said that when we do this, we want to put something permanent there for the residents. So we focused on two main things. The first thing was a permanent source of water. So we brought in heavy machinery. We drilled 90 meters down to get a permanent source of clean drinking water which means that the people in the area don't need to walk, five or six miles to get the water.

It's in their area, which was never there before. And we also install, biogas toilets, which helps with sanitation and turns the human waste into gas, which can be used for cooking. So we put those things in. And then with the land itself, we employed the local people to help us manage it.

And we planted our first crop of ginger last year. So the idea is that the local people will work on it, we'll pay them really fair, above what they would receive for general, labor, jobs in the local economy. They'll help us on the farm. We'll export the ginger, we'll reinvest the profits or most of the profits back into the local communities or to the next project in other areas. And it should be in the end as sort of self-sustaining nice project, which makes a real impact for local people and what I mean, local people like we're working in a very impoverished area where people live in mud huts and don't have access to sanitation or in some cases even clean drinking water. So it's a small project, but I think with a fairly high impact.

Steve: And it sounds amazing. And when I think about basic human needs like clean water and sanitation, we can often take that for granted. Just, you have running water in your house and you have the toilet, and when you go out to these regions that just don't have the infrastructure for it, it just makes it your number one priority each day.

We've got to find water, food, and where you go to get rid of that. So that's, pretty, pretty awesome.

Well, we're, we're at the conclusion of today's session. Thank you so much for spending the time with me to go through Trustmatic and your your non-profit project for the audience that is watching or listening or reading, what are some of the types of conversations and engagement you're looking for out from the IDV community.

Donal: So in general, I'm really open to talking to anybody about anything related to identity. I think every day's a school day and it's really great to have conversations with people who do similar or different things in the same space.

As Trustmatic as well as of course going to market and gaining customers. We'd also like to expand our network of partners, so if there are companies or startups offering complimentary platforms or solutions, We'd love to have that conversation about how we can align and join together and offer a joint solution to the market.

And for people who use IDV solutions in their organization, we'll happily do penetration testing, find the holes in it and hopefully help you patch them up if we can.

Steve: Well, for those listening, I'm going to post Donal's contact information, his LinkedIn and his company's website that's going to be on executiveseries.peakidv.com. Thank you so much, Donal, for taking the time. I learned a ton. Really enjoyed the conversation, and I look forward to a big year for Trustmatic and just shows that you're going to go to, and the product launches and customer implementation.

So thanks, thanks again for taking the time!

Donal: Thanks, a million, Steve, it's been great. All the best.

Steve: All the best. Cheers.

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