Global Verification with President & CEO of Trulioo, Steve Munford

Steve interviews Steve Munford, CEO of Trulioo
Transcript

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In this episode, I interview President & Chief Executive Officer of Trulioo, Steve Munford.

Steve shares his experience joining Trulioo as its Chief Executive at the start of the global pandemic and how his perspective on the identity verification market opportunity has evolved. He discusses how his 25+ years in IT security influenced how he and his leadership team are tackling the identity problem and what it takes to be "The World's Identity Platform."

RESOURCES:

Connecting with Steve Munford

Steve Munford’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-munford-2984261/

Trulioo’s Website: https://www.trulioo.com/

Companies & Resources Discussed

Trulioo delivers a global identity platform that gives you the agility, ease and efficiency to onboard the right customers anywhere in the world while minimizing costs and mitigating fraud.

Absolute Software is an American-Canadian company that provides products and services in the fields of endpoint security and zero trust security.

Carbonite is an American company that offers an online backup service, available to Windows and macOS users.

Sophos is a global provider of advanced cybersecurity solutions, including Managed Detection and Response (MDR) and incident response services and a broad portfolio of endpoint, network, email, and cloud security technologies.

TCV is a growth focused technology investor that seeks to partner with mission-driven teams and empower our partners around the world to achieve market-leading scale and financial performance through their growth journey.

HelloFlow, acquired by Trulioo in 2022, provided a no-code digital onboarding, monitoring, and risk evaluation platform to build digital workflows and use the latest KYC and AML services to ensure regulatory compliance during client onboarding.

Trulioo Identity Platform provides businesses to build and launch onboarding workflows for their unique business needs, through a drag-and-drop Workflow Studio or API Direct.

Dun & Bradstreet helps its clients and partners grow and thrive through the power of data, analytics, and data-driven solutions. It has been a leading global provider of business decisioning data and analytics for almost 200 years.

Queens University is a public research university in Kingston, Ontario, Canada.

X (formerly Twitter) is a social media platform owned by Elon Musk. Part of Musk’s strategic plans includes making X a diversified financial powerhouse by building a super app that steals markershare from traditional banking institutions. (American Banker, Oct. 2023)

Covenant House has opened its doors to more than 1.5 million young people experiencing homelessness and survivors of human trafficking. Covenant House provides immediate and long-term support services for youth facing homelessness and survivors of trafficking in 34 cities across Canada, Latin America and the United States.

Social Venture Partners is the world’s largest engaged network of philanthropists and social change makers with the capacity, commitment, and passion to create lasting change as we reimagine giving — together.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Steve Craig: Welcome to the PEAK IDV EXECUTIVE SERIES video podcast, where I speak with executives, leaders, founders, and change makers in the digital identity space. I'm your host, Steve Craig, Founder and Chief Enablement Officer at PEAK IDV. For our audience, this is a video first series, so if you're enjoying the audio version, please check out the video recording on executiveseries.peakidv.com, where you can watch the full episode, read the transcript, and access any of the resources from today's conversation.

I am super excited for this week's episode, as I have the distinct privilege of speaking with Steve Munford, President and CEO of Trulioo. Trulioo is known as the world's identity platform trusted by leading companies for their business and person verification capabilities. They combine state of the art technology with expert verification knowledge across diverse markets to offer expertise and solutions in KYB, KYC, AML, watchlist screening, and more. Steve is described as a product oriented CEO and has been leading Trulioo since March of 2020. He is a highly accomplished executive, having served as CEO and or board member on a number of enterprise software and cybersecurity firms, including leading companies like Absolute Software, Carbonite, and Sophos.

Welcome, Steve. Thank you for making the time to be on the podcast. 

Steve Munford: Thanks, Steve. Really good to be here. 

Steve C.: Excellent. Well, let's get started. I'm confident that the audience of this podcast has heard of Trulioo, but for those that haven't, how would you describe your company? What's your general elevator pitch?

Steve M.: We've been on this mission to create the world's identity platform, and it's really under this belief that all goods and services will be offered digitally at some point. And if we're going to have a fair and just society, we need to give access to all 8 billion people in the world.

You know, we-- we have an identity solutions today that's used by some of the leading payments, marketplaces, financial services, crypto, and other digital first platforms or missions to make them able to reach all 8 billion people in the world. 

Steve C.: Phenomenal. And I recall when you rolled out that new slogan, the world's identity platform, I think that was early 2023. What does it take to be the world's identity platform? Like what's your global footprint?   

Steve M.: It takes time. Today we cover about 195 customer -- sorry -- countries. We -- you know-- we have about 450 different data sources we bring together for PII matching. We cover -- geez -- I think it's about 13,000 document types. We have 700 million businesses that we can access, and-- and so what that means is -- you know -- with our global customers. I was on the call with one of them early this morning; they're using some 70 different countries, and for them, it's a single API that they connect and do the verification 70 countries. But as they look at adding the next 10 countries is how we partner with them to ensure that they can meet their needs as a global-- global expansion. 

Steve C.: That's great. That's great. You mentioned how long you've been In the market. I've been following Trulioo for many years, and I remember back in the early days, you were focused on being a global identity data gateway. What are your core pillars in your product stack these days? 

Steve M.: Yeah, so we started off by recognizing the gap between data was regionalized and you needed to bring it together on your single API. But also you had to do a lot of work to make data be able to be consumed because it's different formats, different character sets, different languages. And so you have this whole challenges of when people submit information, doing the proper matching. So that's the root of what we do and still a big part of our business today. But the problem we saw was large customers, and even medium and small customers, were knitting together point solutions or siloed solutions to complete the identity onboarding process. And that wasn't efficient, both from our resourcing, but also from results. So, you know, we-- we moved from PII on people to doing a KYB, again, responding to some of the needs of our customers and then adding in document biometrics, ML watch list. And then the last piece was-- was building under one platform and orchestration layer.

Steve C.: You-- you personally joined about four years ago, March, 2020. When you joined, it was right at the beginning of a global pandemic, which is always a great time to join a new company. Can you take me back to your initial ramp in those early days as the new CEO of Trulioo and what that was like? 

Steve M.: Yeah, that was crazy times. And-- and yeah it seems like longer than four years ago, but you know, I had a chance to meet… we were very Vancouver central at that time, so I had a chance to meet people in the office back in February, but yeah, my first day in the office was April 1 and it was in base… my basement in the home office.

And you know, I tell you, it was challenging, you know, getting to know people.  I had been in security, as you pointed out earlier, so understanding the identity market, the nuances of it, learning about the product, connecting with customers, all somewhat challenging over COVID. And then you compounded on that, we had a number of customers that were in travel and travel marketplaces. So, so you have this kind of-- this real change in revenue streams and-- and-- and broad uncertainty and-- and again, learning a bunch of new products. So yeah, it was challenging, but it was exciting.  

Steve C.: Yeah, the environment was very dynamic. I was at a solution provider at the time, and it wasn't clear what direction this was going to go. The lockdowns were coming. We didn't quite understand the virus, but then for the identity market, as we closed out 2020, we went into 2021 things started to change. How did your perspective on the market opportunity change and very -- you know -- six months in as you went into 2021?

Steve M.: Yeah. So what we saw with COVID is the acceleration of things going digital, right? So-- so, you know, we-- we had everything from like taxpayers that -- you know -- used to -- you know -- do the verification in person with physical documents, go digital. We had the whole online trading explosion and the mean stock, which all drove a lot of customer acquisition by those platforms. And again, we were able to slot into that trend and powered so many of them. I always remember that the day of the GameStop stopped trading, that whole market disruption, we-- we had hundreds and hundreds of thousands of new accounts being opened across multiple different product platforms. So it was dynamic. And then crypto was the-- the great accelerator for digital identity. It was -- I think if I talked to any other CEOs -- it was a time where crypto was all about onboarding the next new user, big investments, big-- big acceleration of going global. So it was-- it was a phenomenal year, 2021. It just was a real rocket ship for us. 

Steve C.: Yeah. I think about 2021. A lot of the companies that would use these services, fintechs, cryptos, marketplaces, they were all getting massive amounts of venture capital as everyone was going digital and then about a year after you joined, you raised $394 million, which brought Trulioo to unicorn status. During that time, there were a lot of investments in identity verification, biometrics, related technologies, lots of seed investments, but also more mature rounds. I'm sure you could have chosen from a lot of different investors. Why did you choose the company TCV as your lead investor? Can you talk about that relationship? 

Steve M.: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And we were fortunate. We-- we-- we're seeing really strong growth. We had a strong balance sheet or a good balance sheet for more standards. And so we didn't need to raise money -- but you know, my mom always told me eat when served -- and-- and it was a market that-- that it was a -- it was a good funding environment. And, you know, at that point we started to really, you know, latch onto this-- this-- this role we could play as a global identity platform. And we realized that was going to take a lot of investment in product and potentially some M&A. So it was the right time to raise money. You're right, we had-- we had a lot of inbound interest. TCV was interesting because they had educated themselves about the market, about us, well before they called us. Many of their investments were actually customer support so that-- that's really helpful, right? So when someone shows up and say, “Hey, or, you know, of your top 10 customers we've invested in you know, a large number of them and we've talked to them and we understand why you're special.” That means it's an intelligent investor and they -- there's synergies between how they look at the market, their customers, and even some of our prospects were portfolio companies that plus, I'd known them from the security space for 15 years, so I had a great respect for the platform and the-- and the people there. So very smart capital that could give us access, help us with customer acquisition, but more than that, just partner and really shared the same vision of what we could do, what was needed in the market.  

Steve C.: Great. I often work with investors in my role within PEAK IDV, and I love when they're really curious about the space. They want to understand the use cases and the market opportunities, and they can see through short term trends-- short term trends and long term opportunities. I'm curious about one of the things that happened after that, which was another year, which-- which was an acquisition, you had purchased HelloFlow, which was a no code orchestration startup. Can you talk about what drove that acquisition, that market decision?  

Steve M.: Kind of our thesis was the identity market was full of siloed solutions, right? So -- and even that was the case of us -- we had a great ability to do person match, the IDV matching on individuals. We had business matching capabilities and we had document verification capabilities. But they were separate solutions. So if a customer is wanting to use them, they would integrate it three different ways, three different structures. And that really wasn't compelling. And what we heard from people is they wanted the ability to orchestrate their whole identity workflow, ideally with one vendor and-- and-- and get to this point of, you know, lowering the cost of verifying a good user.

And so we-- we went about saying, “Hey, what plat… could we build ourselves, what platforms are out there?” Really liked the technology that HelloFlow built, very modern, and-- and because vision, how we could put all our capabilities under it. And it was a very young company, so we weren't dealing with, you know, 10 years of legacy code or 10 years of large customers on it that -- you know -- we'd have to figure out how we're going to mash it all together. We bought it both because it was part of our vision, but also the purity of the technology and how we could create one platform, one eloquent-- eloquent platform with their technology. So when we bought it, we virtually stopped selling it. We-- we-- we-- we-- we are, well, then we architect, but we put all our tech stack underneath it. And a year later we brought together the Trulioo Identity Platform. And that really was the birth of what we now call the world's identity platform. 

Steve C.: That's-- that's great backstory. I anticipate more acquisitions in the space. I actually think there'll be consolidation, in the year, there was a big one that happened just recently from a document centric provider, but integrating companies, merging stacks and all that is really tough work. What's your approach to M&A? You sort of alluded to it a little bit with the pause on sales, but how do you combine cultures and technologies and then reemerge for go to market?

Steve M.: So I spent 25 years in IT Security, was part of a lot of acquisitions, I think,  so folks, I led six of them. What you learn over the years is for a hard problem -- and I put security and identity in this -- the most important thing is, especially a problem that you're solving for large customers requires high performance, you really got to focus on the tech and you got to focus on, you know, the-- the product market fit, the tech, and how you can build one platform. Too often what you see in-- in M&A is you end up with these two companies that talk about a vision of-- of-- of a combined solution, but they never really come together. So there's really no advantage for the customer. So we're very much at a tech product focus M&A and not so much a revenue market reach for M&A company.

So we're not, we're not trying to consolidate a market for financial engineering, we're trying to build a platform with great technology. So our approach is very much a tech focused and it's really, you know, technology that can help accelerate our platform strategy. So I agree with you, I think there's going to be a lot more M&A in the market. I think some of it could be for financial engineering. Some of it could just because some investors are tired and it's time to get out of it. And some of it will be to build great products. And we're going to be that one. 

Steve C.: You made a good point about the customer experience from an integration. And I've seen some very large companies in the space start to roll up various signals and features. But then what I've heard from the practitioners is it's been challenging to integrate. They're not rationalized. There's no interoperability. They're dealing with different groups. They're dealing with different APIs and documentation. And at the end of the day, they're not really getting that benefit of that holistic experience. So I've certainly seen that. One of the things you mentioned just now was about your business entity verification, business, onboarding KYB. Is that something that you're building out internally or was that related to HelloFlow? 

Steve M.: So we-- we actually… just back to your previous comment, anytime you hear the word rollup, it's just kind of like sends bristles up… like-- like nothing good happens with a tech rollup for the customer. It may be good for financial engineering, so I echo your comments there. 

So KYB is… we-- we were providing data, data services for KYB. What we realized is it's-- it's a workflow problem. So if you think about the steps to onboard a business and say you're a marketplace, you've got-- you've got to start with who's submitting that. How do I validate that they're a real person? And then you get into the layers of-- of understanding the business all the way through to onboarding that business. So it's… KYB is actually a workflow problem with a lot of data behind it and-- and a lot of risk signals that you fold into it. So we-- we kind of… with HelloFlow, we got the workflow capabilities, and then underpinning that is our roots in data data acquisition, and then since then, we've really accelerated our innovation. We're now direct to most government sources on companies, which is really important. We've got this mission to tackle the-- the long tail, which is really the challenge of KYB. It's not hard to validate Microsoft, but it's exceptionally hard to validate the small person that's maybe participating in the gig economy. So it's actually a fascinating problem, but it's a workflow problem, and it's multi-layered, a little more complex than individual verification.  

Steve C.: Yeah, certainly KYB is broader with just business entity verification. How do you see the global market for that problem evolving?  

Steve M.: Yeah, so-- so today you kind of have legacy providers like Dun & Bradstreet that, again, I think they're very focused on the larger companies and-- and-- and so they-- they-- they have some elements of it. They-- they don't necessarily… or a lot of the legacy providers don't really have the real time capabilities and can't necessarily meet all the new regulation requirements, very few are global, right? So, so there's a lot of people trying to solve business verification in the US or maybe in the UK, but very few are global. So, in fact, I think we're quite unique on that. 

We would say business verification is still largely an unsolved problem on a global basis. We-- we think we're-- we're doing a-- quite a good job, but there's more room to go and especially around again, that long tail. And then how we can start to layer in risk signals and other-- other information to help with the onboarding process. And we-- we work with some of the largest marketplaces, payment providers, and, we certainly hear their challenges and, we're-- we're just continuing to partner with them on-- on solving them. 

Steve C.: I'm hearing a lot in the market about business identity theft or business impersonation. What are you hearing from your customers when it comes to attacks versus like the onboarding and compliance? Like what's the impact?  

Steve M.: Yeah. So the very nature of business information is-- is-- is public, right? So if I want to put a product on a marketplace and try to get credit and try to scam either customers or the marketplace itself, I can take the information, the business sign up and get on the marketplace and even start to do some activities of a business I don't know. That's a challenge for marketplaces. And what needs to start with is, who is submitting that information and how do I validate that’s a valid person that's connected with that marketplace? And once I do that, then I can start to go through my business onboarding process. So there's a lot more focus on, if you will, the submitter and-- and-- and how do I validate that as truly someone part of that company? And then how do I look for risk signals on how long has that business entity been around? Where things like the IP address and some of the signals that can start to tell me is this likely that business that-- that's happening. And then you're starting to see people really think about a layered how much trust do I give that business day one? How much trust do I wait and give it? But doing business verification is key to any of these two sided marketplaces, gig economies, and, yeah, there's a lot of focus on it.  

Steve C.: Some of the companies in the market, identity verification companies specifically, have focused really on onboarding, KYC more or getting into KYB but some have also invested in authentication or re-verification or biometric plays around that. And sometimes that's R&D, sometimes that's acquisition. Do you see convergence of those use cases with, for that day one interaction with a new business or person? 

Steve M.: Yeah, we-- we-- we see -- at this point -- we see partnering opportunities with people that do the authentication, and we have some of our customers leading in that, leading us in that direction. It's-- it's authentication is-- is different than verification and most companies think about them as two different steps, but I do see them connecting. And-- and I think one of the areas that we keep hearing about is account takeover, right? So what are the signals that we are seeing in the onboarding process? And what are the signals that could help predict or alert people about account takeovers? And-- and-- and so there's a lot of interaction going on in data there. And-- and again, we're talking to some of our largest customers a way that we can-- we can support that.  

Steve C.: You know, another common theme is this concept of reusable or portable identity. Do you, do you see convergence connected to the onboarding experience? Like a verify once? 

Steve M.: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're just seeing this-- this growth of wallets, whether those are government wallets, government identity schemes, we're seeing a lot of that in Europe, some in Asia, we're seeing private wallets. And we-- we see that as all different pieces of an identity platform. So-- so just like we'll-- we'll look at 450 different data sources or-- or different document types, you know, we're launching our government, what we call EIDs connected to-- to government identity programs. So we see that as all components of a-- of a platform. No one, you know, one solution is going to fit everybody. And certainly what we hear from a large customers is that they-- they do not want to go around and integrate with every different government scheme or every different private scheme. So again, we think that accelerates the need for an identity platform, but it's just different attributes, different techniques that are going to be used in the future.  

Steve C.: Yeah, I've seen websites where they've decided to integrate almost every single federated login option there is. And you as a consumer, like, “Which of these do I pick?” And that's a lot of tough work to do. And then I think it'll be similar when we talk about verified identity. Consumers can get confused by all the different options. 

I want to segue a little bit into other trends and convergences. You've mentioned marketplaces a few times, and that's the area that you're focused on. I'm seeing this trend of traditionally unregulated companies that aren't under the banner of like financial services, that haven't had a KYC requirement that maybe they've been doing it, but not calling it KYC, doing more of these KYC-like approaches. They're doing watch list screening now, they're-- they're awakening to the importance of a document verification and biometrics. What do you think that industries that haven't been doing these things can learn from their peers in banks and in financial services? 

Steve M.: Yeah, they're-- they're-- they're learning that the establishment of trust is critical if you're going to have a marketplace, especially two sided marketplaces. I think any unregulated industry that is doing any kind of payout or transfer of money will realize that, at some point, there'll be some regulation that will come. So it was both a combination of kind of risk-- risk and safety reputation. And then this notion that regulations could come is having them look at what… how do I learn from more of the regulated industries and-- and maybe not learning from a traditional bank but more looking at digital first. Whether it's payments… payments is, I think, a good example, you know, crypto got there very, very quickly. Online betting and another… other industries that were regulated, but really wanted to have low friction onboarding process, so I think they're looking at that. 

Steve C.: Yeah, it feels like it's reached more of a fever pitch with everyone doing digital now and all of these marketplaces that have cropped up. So I've certainly been hearing about it more and more.

Steve M.: Especially when you see governments talking about the need for you know, whatever content or whatever, you know, social platforms to really start to think about how do they control who's on the platform and verify that they're real people, participating in whatever type of platform they're on. So it's not only marketplaces, but it's also other social platforms.

Steve C.: And just segue a little bit and researching your background, I want to talk about this-- this other emerging trend around super apps. And I see you're a Queens University MBA alum. And I know another alum, not personally, but I've heard of Mr Elon Musk. Elon purchased Twitter, he renamed it X and he's evolving it into a super app. And I've often seen him on stage where he references what they've done in China and other countries. If you were to join the X board. What kind of advice would you give, on these topics to the company on that evolution? 

Steve M.: Yeah. I don't think he actually graduated from Queens. I think he visited Queens or when there [Steve C: He stopped by], so I think he did some courses there. Yeah, an impressive background. I think, you know, the key to any super app or platform is trust. And, I would really, really focus on ensuring that their… the people on the platform are trusted. And what I mean by that is-- is-- are they who they say they are? And are you guarding your platform against abuse from unregulated content or-- or-- or non real people? Because I think that, is-- is really the thing. Well, it's a downfall for any-- any super app or any kind of social media platform or any two sided marketplace.

Steve C.: Yeah, I mean, the global perspective is hard to take in when you're not a user of those technologies in other countries and you hear about them, and you think, well, what, why can't we do this here? And there's different regulations. There's different political environments. There's different economic engines.

I know your roots are based in Canada. You're, you're in Vancouver right now, but you've lived and worked all over the world and Trulioo, who has a global workforce, How do you think your being in Vancouver in that ecosystem has impacted how you think globally, your company and culture? 

Steve M.: Yeah, so Vancouver is very multicultural. And, so we.. you know, within Vancouver, there's a strong Asian community, there's a strong European community, and Canada itself is not a large market. So there's just this very… by nature, if you're a Canadian business, you-- you think globally. If you're going to be a company of scale, I would say in the… we've been able to get great talent that really identifies with their mission.

Interesting enough we’re… our-- our-- our Dublin office was-- was started by an Irish individual that was in Vancouver. Tech person that worked here from the very beginning of the company and then wanted to go home. So he formed the basis of our Irish office. I think at one point we… almost 10 percent of our employees in Vancouver were Irish. And then similarly in-- in Asia, one of our long standing star employees was from China and he wanted to go back to Asia. So he then returned to open up our Singapore office and we've been building around him there. So, it's just been a… it was wonderful to see this talented multicultural workforce with this global ambition connected to the mission, and then they start to spread out around the world, it's great. 

Steve C.: I think it's really important in this market, if you're in digital identity or identity verification, to have representation in the markets and countries you serve, so you have a better gauge on the culture. So that's-- that's phenomenal. 

Well, Steve, we're coming up on time. I'd love to hear what your vision for Trulioo is for this next year and maybe beyond that, a few years out, maybe through the rest of the 2020s. 

Steve M.: Yeah, so i'll talk a lot internally about we're on a journey, right? And-- and when you solve a hard problem like digital identity, you can be sure that it's never fully solved, right? It's one of those problems that… what you need to do to verify someone will always be changing. You're going to have, you know, bad actors trying to figure out how to get around that. You're going to have our customers changing the needs and then you have regulation changing. So, as we go forward, what we-- we believe is that the platform will be the basis of which we can solve those changing needs and our role really is to work with our large customers and new large customers to help us stay ahead of what is required. Whether that's for trust and safety, as you've talked about, or for regulations, or for fraud. And so, you know, you're going to see us talk a lot more about fraud in the future.

You're going to see us connect our products together for more seamless onboarding. And-- and you're gonna see us embrace things like government IT schemes. And then again, two or three years from now, what we need to do to stay-- stay ahead and help our customers will change. So we're not a company that's here today and gone tomorrow. We're not building to-- to sell next year. We're building to solve this problem, and we take a very long term view of that.  

Steve C.: Excellent. Excellent. Well, before we close out on today's conversation, if you've seen any of these episodes of executive series, I'd like to go a little bit beyond the LinkedIn profile and share more about the person behind the press release. And I did some research and I see your director at Covenant House in Vancouver, and you're also a board member on Social Venture Partners. I'd love to hear more about those organizations and the work that you do there, Steve. 

Steve M.: Yeah. So thank you for noticing that. I, you know, I've been in tech for a long time and been able to benefit from that and strong believer in giving back, and especially in your community. I've always had a… my wife and I have always had an interest in-- in youth at risk, or-- or children at risk. And so we focus both are giving and her time is supporting those causes. My wife is a teacher, so she does it in that way. But we… yeah, if you look around town, we're very thoughtful about how we give both time and money.

Covenant House is a wonderful organization. They've been around for 30 years and, you know, we have a huge homeless issue here in Vancouver and-- and they-- they've got a really good history and capacity to-- to help that. And… kind of investing and supporting them is-- is a small piece that I can do.

So, yeah, that's just kind of who I am. And, yeah, at Trulioo we also try to do our part of giving back. We-- we provide-- provide scholarships to youth that may otherwise don't go to university and-- and we provide co-ops and internships for-- for students like that as well. And then also mentorship programs. So, it's part of our culture.  

Steve C.: That's wonderful Steve. Thank you for sharing the background on that. Well, as we get to the close of today's conversation for those that are watching or listening, maybe reading the transcript, what types of conversations are interesting to you or to members of the Trulioo team?

Steve M.: Yeah, certainly we… listen, pragmatically, we were very focused on understanding regulations, growing trends and identity. And then beyond that personally, certainly staying up to, you know, up to speed on current events, which there's a lot to digest these days. And then… yeah, just a very eclectic group of historical podcasts that I'll personally listen to. But I'm a huge-- huge fan of podcasts. So I think that's one of the things that pandemic-- pandemic taught me was the-- the-- the--, you know, just how-- how much, how rich podcasts are and, and how you can really enhance a walk or a workout or-- or other things by listening to good, good podcasts. So thanks Steven, and, yeah.

Steve C.: I'm a big believer in that I've really focused on video editions. There's audio and video because I feel like when you're having a video conversation, people can get to know you better. They look how you speak and they feel like they know you and in turn they know your company and I think that's a great thing.

Thank you so much for making the time. I know you've got a lot on your plate and very busy. I look forward to seeing Trulioo's continued evolution in the market, its continued success and thanks again for making the time.  

Steve M.: Pleasure, Steve. Nice to chat with you. And I look forward to listening to more of your podcasts. Really appreciate it.

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